As we mentioned in earlier posts,words like "destroyer","cruiser" and "frigate" can mean different things to different navies.
The meaning of these words has also changed over time.
No where is this more the case than in the United States' Navy.
To take just one example,the Leahy class,these ships were considered to be frigates but were commissioned as Guided missile Destroyer Leaders (D.L.G.) until being reclassified as Guided missile Cruisers (C.G.).
Originally,a frigate was a cruising ship,or cruiser.
Today the United States' Navy considers frigates,cruisers and destroyers to be different kinds of ships.
A modern American "frigate" is an escort ship with far more basic weapons,sensors and machinery than it's equivalents in other navies.
A modern American "destroyer" is a fleet escort equivalent to the most powerful surface combatants in other navies.
A modern American "cruiser" is a fleet escort with more weapons,sensors and command facilities than a destroyer.
The relationship between the Ticonderoga class cruisers and the Burke class destroyers is such that in the past the cruisers might have been classed as "destroyer leaders" - more powerful ships which led flotillas of destroyers.
The relationship between the Ticonderoga class cruisers and the Burke class destroyers is such that in the past the cruisers might have been classed as "destroyer leaders" - more powerful ships which led flotillas of destroyers.
Today the United States' Navy is yet again redefining the word "destroyer" with the (Destroyer,Destroyer,Guided missile) D.D.G. 1,000 Zumwalt class.
These ships are far larger than current American destroyers and cruisers,and larger than most Second World War era light and heavy cruisers.
They have an emphasis on land attack which during two world wars was the job of vessels known as "monitors".
A term which was in it's self a perversion of the name of a vessel designed specifically to attack ships during the American Civil War and subsequent eponymic type of low freeboard turreted warship.
The Zumwalt class has a number of problems,the most serious of which is their huge cost which has seen a class of 32 ships cut to just 3.
This class of just 3 vessels is expected to cost $11,894.8 Million,or $3,964.9 Million per ship.
There also appear to be numerous design problems on the Zumwalt class beyond those responsible for it's enormous cost.
Main guns conflict with each other and with forward missile launch silos.
Main guns conflict with each other and with forward missile launch silos.
Aft missile launch silos conflict with helicopter operations and the 57mm guns.
Short range guns conflict with each other,helicopter operations (this is practically unavoidable),the aft missile silos and with the superstructure.
The cost of the Zumwalt class has resulted in the United States' Navy planning to succeed them with updated "Flight III" versions of the now 22 year old Burke class destroyers.
This was considered to be a cheaper option but some now suggest that these ships could cost $3,000 - $4,000 Million each (even the current Burke Flight IIA ships cost twice as much as the British Daring class destroyers).
The cost of both the Zumwalt class and the Burke Flight III ships far exceeds their utility.
The United States' Navy needs is a surface combatant which is both capable and affordable (in United States' Navy terms).
We shall have a look at such a ship in future parts of "A New American Destroyer".
I personally think the Americans have gone down the wrong road. They have basically scraped the frigate with the specific role of ASW for the fleet. This is instead done by the burkes which are hideously expensive and it is a bad use of resources.
ReplyDeleteThe quasi replacement for the frigate is also the LCS which again is extremely expensive and a big compromise between a lot of roles that i believe will make it not great at anything.
Hello mick 346,
ReplyDeleteI agree.
They can't afford the kind of fleet they want.
Worse,they don't even have any logical arguments to justify their planned fleet structure.
It is not possible to know what characteristics a warship should have without knowing what that ship is expected to do.
Yet the United States' Navy has bought ships with a highly unusual range of characteristics and openly admitted that it doesn't know what it will be doing with these ships.
An escort ship needs a local area anti-missile system,anti-ship capability and the ability to tow a sonar array at high quiet speeds for long periods of time.
The Littoral Combat Ships lack all of those characteristics but now senior American officials talk about using them in that role.
The Americans have some intellectual issues to deal with before they build any more ships.
GrandLogistics.
Destroyers were originaly Torpedo Boat Destroyers, very very small ships, designed to speed out from the main fleet, and intercept incoming torpedo boats, themselves very small ships.
ReplyDeletePersonaly, I just use the words as weight classifications,
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Smallest to Biggest.
Hello The raging Tory,
ReplyDeleteI have some information I know you are interested in.
The unrefuelled combat radius of the F35C,there are lots of figures for the F35 in clean configuration which are all different and all correct.
The only ones I have seen for an F35C in it's normal combat configuration,with external tanks,ranged from about 860-1,060 statute miles with a 4,000 pound bomb load.
Note those numbers are for the radius (1,060 miles out and 1,060 miles back) not the range which is a one way figure.
Now back to ships.
That is a sensible way of categorising ships the problem is there are lots of other sensible ways and none of them are historically consistent!
Size was a very logical way to categorise ships before the Second World War because they were almost all designed for surface warfare and their size defined their guns,armour,speed and range.
Size continues to have a significant influence on a ship's combat power but the loss of ships like the Prince of Wales,Barham,Musashi and Yamato demonstrated that the range of capabilities carried by a ship can be more important than the size of the ship it's self.
The most powerful combatants are the ones which can deal with the full spectrum of threats in the air,on land,under the sea and on the sea.
I like the idea of nomenclature reflecting the range of capabilities a warship has.
In terms of role,almost every surface combatant since 1939,whether it is a corvette or a battleship,might be described as an "escort".
That name perfectly suits any frigate,destroyer or cruiser of the post war era.
Except many of those vessels are also called upon for independent patrols placing them in the same role as the traditional frigate of 200 years ago.
I'll stop there before I run out of words.
GrandLogistics.
mick 346, the US Navy frigate was never intended for fleet ASW - that mission was to be conducted by the Spruance class destroyers. While frigates have of course bee pressed into service as fleet escorts, they were intended to affordably protect convoys and lack the speed to keep up with the carriers.
ReplyDeleteSince the Cold War ended the Spruances were decommissioned because of their age and the sharply reduced submarine threat and the newer Burkes were given this mission. At the same time, the need to protect convoys vanished and the frigates were relegated to secondary duties. The LCS is designed to fill these missions that the frigates are currently doing - not the ASW mission they were designed for.
I'm not sure what orifice you pulled the cost of a Darling verses a Burke from, or if you somehow were so daft you didn't convert between pounds at dollars. A Darling is 1.05 Billion pounds that's 1.78 billion US dollars while the Burke cost about 1.84 billion dollars each. That minor extra cost can fairly easily be said to be absorbed by their larger displacement and additional systems of the Burke.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't try and give me any shit about how that's including R&D costs, no shit it includes R&D costs R&D costs are an integral aspect of any weapons program and trying to toss them out of a cost assessment is ludicrous.
Modern Warships are expensive this cannot be avoided although to a very real extent the cost hasn't risen as much as many doomsayers crow about. See there's this thing called called inflation... For instance for all the crying about the LCS if you adjust for inflation it actually costs about as much as a Perry class did new and it's capabilities aren't much different to be honest. Max cruising range is similar, but the LCS has a higher sprint speed. Both relied on towed sonar systems and a helicopter for ASW. Both have a limited self defense missile capability (RAM is actually WAY better then SM-1 ever was) and a medium caliber gun. The Perry could also theoretically fire ASMs, but given the space and weight available there is no reason LCS couldn't have ASM launchers fitted if required.
This is just one example an Essex class carrier for example would cost upward of a billion dollars in today's money without any upgrades or mods or whatever, just from a straight up inflation adjustment of it's original price tag it's a billion dollar vessel.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteTk3997 said...
"I'm not sure what orifice you pulled the cost of a Darling verses a Burke from, or if you somehow were so daft you didn't convert between pounds at dollars."
By "Darling",do you mean Daring?
Is this indicative of your level of expertise in this area?
The "orifice" the costs were "pulled from" is official United States and United Kingdom government figures,you would know that if you were bright enough to check before commenting.
The figures were converted using the exchange rate at the time this article was written,you would have been able to work that out for yourself if someone taught you how to use a calculator.
Tk3997 said...
"A Darling is 1.05 Billion pounds that's 1.78 billion US dollars while the Burke cost about 1.84 billion dollars each.
That minor extra cost can fairly easily be said to be absorbed by their larger displacement and additional systems of the Burke."
The production cost of a Daring class destroyer was £650 Million which at the current exchange rate is about $910 Million United States Dollars,half the price of an Arleigh Burke class destroyer.
The higher figures which Wikipedia warriors often quote are the program costs which include the cost of developing the missiles,radars,combat system and the ship itself.
Perhaps you could find a grown up to explain to you the difference between "Unit Program Costs" and "Unit Production Costs"?
Incidentally both vessels have similar displacements.
Tk3997 said...
"And don't try and give me any shit about how that's including R&D costs, no shit it includes R&D costs R&D costs are an integral aspect of any weapons program and trying to toss them out of a cost assessment is ludicrous."
The United States Navy does not include development costs of Aegis Radars,Standard Missiles or even of the Arleigh Burke class itself in the production costs it quotes for Arleigh Burke class destroyers.
You would know that if you had bothered to research this subject before posting your drivel on this site.
Perhaps you should phone the United States Navy up and explain to them how ludicrous it is to toss research and development costs out of a cost assessment?
Tk3997 said...
"See there's this thing called called inflation..."
That is a very long word,did you hear it on Sesame Street?
Tk3997 said...
"For instance for all the crying about the LCS if you adjust for inflation it actually costs about as much as a Perry class did new and it's capabilities aren't much different to be honest.
Max cruising range is similar, but the LCS has a higher sprint speed. Both relied on towed sonar systems and a helicopter for ASW.
Both have a limited self defense missile capability (RAM is actually WAY better then SM-1 ever was) and a medium caliber gun.
The Perry could also theoretically fire ASMs, but given the space and weight available there is no reason LCS couldn't have ASM launchers fitted if required."
There are some people who would be very interested to hear your expert views on the Littoral Combat Ship,you can find them here:
http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.co.uk
Don't forget to tell them how well a towed array sonar works when pulled by fifty knot planing hull.
Don't worry,your comments are not going to be deleted,this is an equal opportunities blog and we welcome posts from the intellectually challenged.
Grand Logistics.